>> MODERATOR:  May I request those participating or attending this can come to this side?  Left and right?  Because there is no point all of you sitting behind the panel.

     We have space on the right and the left here.  It will be nice if you all can move on this side.

     (Pause.)

     >> MODERATOR:  Mr. Peixi Xu?  You are here?  Wonderful.  Hi.  How are you?

     Wonderful.  Thank you.

     And we have Ms. Claire?  Yeah, hi, how are you?  Thank you for joining.  Come closer.  Yeah, yeah.

     And we have Gardner already here.  Ms. Zena, she's here.

     And is Mr. Bhanu online?  Is he available online?

     I am not taking the names because he is running late.

     Okay, wonderful.

     Once again, those who are attending, all of you are requested to either come here on the right or left so that we all see each other.

     And you can still work on your laptop. 

      (Laughter.)

     >> MODERATOR:  Wonderful.  Thank you very much.  We are starting this session.  Thank you very much for everyone who is here.

     The name of our session or the topic is Overcoming Barriers to Bridge Digital Divide.  I think this is a 30-year-old topic which is challenging because we are still tackling with this one.

     And many Internet, when Internet come to our life, the divide started since then.

     I was looking at one of the statistics that ITU posted saying that 2.6 billion people still do not have access.  Out of the seven-point some billion which is like one-third of the world still does not have connectivity.

     And when this proposal of this session was done it was not only meant that digital divide is only meaning those who do not have access.  We also wanted to discuss how do we define digital divide, what is digital divide?  It is not that those people who don't have access are divided.  But those people who are having access sometimes cannot afford it.  And sometimes it is not meaningful.  Sometimes they cannot do transactions.  Sometimes they do not have literacy to use it.

     So if we claim that we have more than, you know, 5 billion people connected, I am sure almost half of them will not have meaningful connectivity.  They may have, they may be part of the data who may have used the Internet once in awhile.

     Then there is a third category, the most important category is that because of the digital divide, are you excluded?  It is not only that not included, but excluded because there are legislation which says there are rules which says that you can only do transaction online.  And then there are rules that says that you can only make your payment online.  Then there are rules that says that you can only have entitlement when you have a digital identity.

     So we in the last 30 years, I think, we have also progressed in such a way that legislation, rules, regulations have become almost like mandatory.  Their digital is given.  That is a big challenge that we are facing.

     So therefore, the topic of digital divide is multifaceted.  Digital divide does not only not include but it also excludes.  It leaves people alone.  It leaves people inaccessible.  It leaves people deprived, so on and so forth.

     To go on, we have, this NRI session has six speakers.  In the first part of the session.  And just to be, you know, comfortable that everybody shares their part of intervention.  I would request if you can share all the speakers that if you can share your intervention in the first part, three to four minutes, maximum five minutes.  That will be really nice.

     And we have been, all the speakers from different parts, we have Africa, part also to hear the story what is happening there.  We have Asia, we have Europe.  We have Latin America.  And we have Arab also, MENA region.

     And although our list says that I should have gone first to consequence slate representing Africa, but he is not here.  He will come.

     We go first to Asia.  May I request Mr. Peixi Xu from China IGF to share your thoughts?

     >> PEIXI XU:  Thank you very much.  So my name is Peixi Xu, Professor of Communications at the University of China.  And I think at the beginning I would like to introduce to you two types of digital divides that I'm very much interested in.  One is domestic in China.  That is called the divide in terms of age.  The other is kind of transnational divide which is very important globally.

     So among all these different kinds of divides, gender divide, right?  Connection divide, or quality of use divide.  Or kind of urban rural divides.  All these divides, perhaps in China the most obvious one is this divide in terms of age.  We do not have a kind of gender divide fortunately which means 50 percent of the Internet users, 51 percent of Internet users are men.  And 49 percent of users are women.  So that doesn't make a difference.

     The most prominent divide is this divide in terms of age.  And that we have, for example, 13 percent of the Internet users are old people.  They don't have a voice somehow online.  Which leads to potentially, I will call it old people.  The old people online are described to be rather bad.  If they, for example, fall down on the street you should never go and help them because they are going to somehow charge you that you are responsible for this kind of stuff.

     So there is a kind of bad old people phenomenon.  The fact is that old people are very devoted actually.  They do a lot of things.  They have the young, help their young sons and doctors to take care of the babies and so forth, but they don't have a good image online.  That is also a phenomenon that is called bad mother-in-law online.

     So the mother-in-laws are considered to be bad online because they don't have a voice.  Only young women are online.

     So that is one thing in China.  That is a dominant one.

     And globally, I think that is also transnational divide which is again very important.  And so this divide I think is important to improve some global understanding.

     For example, I have this kind of poll.  Sometimes also in the classroom, kind of a classic poll or research asking what does it remind you when talking about a region?  When talking about China, when talking about Africa, when talking about the United States?

     And there is one also particularly for my students from my classroom, when talking about Africa, it reminds her of a lot of animals.  And what was the reason?  The reason is that she watched too many BBC documentaries about the animals in Africa.  However, she does not pay a lot of attention to the people, to their lives, to the prosperity over there.

     So that is somehow also creating some biases, discriminations are created out of this kind of divide.

     And most important of all, I think, is this country a good country?  Or is this country free?  Or is that country not free?  Is this country democratic or is that country not democratic?

     That is somehow also we can find reasons from these transnational divide.

     So in that case I think it is very important to tackle.  You have mentioned that we have been talking about this topic for like 30 years, many years.  But the kind of symptoms are now surfacing, appearing and are showcasing.  I think measures are needed.  Maybe you can come back to it later.  Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  I think it was very interesting to note that you have no gender divide because most of the other Asian countries, there is a serious gender digital divide.  So much so that the percentage is very, very low.

     Thank you very much.  We can go to Europe.  And would like to hear Ms. Claire Popineau from the French IGF.  Your turn, please.

     >> CLAIRE POPINEAU:  Thank you.  I am Claire Popineau, Senior Director at the French Ministry of Justice and in charge of the Internet project.  I have a title The Digital Inclusion Behind The Walls because in France by principle and for obvious security reasons French press are part of the interconnected places.

     This does not have access with exceptions to digital technology and Internet.  However, one of the mission of the prison administration as defined by the prison law of 2009 consists of reintegration, Internet and digital technology are very important factors in this goal and possible reasons.

     First of all, the increase in eAdministration, requires that detainees have access to Social Security, et cetera, likewise for any daily procedure which will allow the detained person once released to return to a normal life process, to find a job.

     Allowing access to hardly enough, I will review this point a bit later.

     Secondly, why connecting detainees is necessary in order to reintegrate.  In France digital professions are intention, it lacks of people.  Just I will give you some numbers.  In 2022, 945,000 jobs in the digital sector were either labour, but 85,000 were not filled.  It is 10 percent of them.

     In 2022, 70 percent of digital companies in the French region cannot find recruits.

     And by 2030 projection, the number of digital jobs is expected to increase by 100,000 per year.

     So a balance of interests need to be done between the question of security in prisons and the question of reintegration.  It is security in the longer term with a strong opportunity that lies in digital skills.

     Furthermore, any detainee who receives training sees recidivism dropping seriously.  We cannot let the outside digital world -- the detainee.

     But there are obstacles in prison.  First of all technological issues to guarantee security.  Only few actions actually exist towards detainees for digital and Internet sources.  There are certain issues for what is called in France (French phrase) issues surrounding literacy, the ability to learn, and the question of self-censorship and how to make training courses that seem technical and cutting edge yet accessible and attractive.

     That is where the project intervenes.  In French(French phrase), it means innovate through experimental structures of reintegration through employment.

     Then just a few words about this project and the aspects will be publicly known.  There are small structures which will accommodate voluntary convicted person in which 100 percent of the detained person will work with professional training.  These structures will enter value added work allowing them to improve their skills.  So work will be strongly coupled with professional training and event schooling and digital professions should hold an important place.

     So training has been designed, as connected by design with the diplomat of the network for all access of detained persons in the personal dimension, for example, video with family.  Or in the learning and professional promotion.  Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  Thank you for broadly elucidating the French scenario which I hope also is a broader scenario of the entire Europe.

     Let's go to Latin America and I would request Karla Velasco to elaborate the situation in that side.  Yeah.

     >> KARLA VELASCO: Yes.  Thank you very much for the invitation here, Osama, and the rest of the panel.  It is a pleasure to be here.

     I have been working with access projects as part of Civil Society now and also with the government in Mexico for seven years now.  And the things are.  Changed that much, right?  The situation on digital inclusion is a very important one.

     In Mexico and in the rest of the region in the Americas region, and the main problem still remains to connect the people that are unconnected.

     We have been working together with regulators and with the governmental offices not only for Mexico but from different Latin American countries and we see that the digital divide does not reflect at times other digital divides that are accessibility, availability, affordability, quality of services and digital skills.

     So these are all the other divides that need to be tackled.

     And also the differences that exist between rural and urban areas.  So one of the main issues is that in urban areas you get to have good connection, people are connected.  And it is somehow affordable for the people to connect.  But then in urban and -- rural and remote areas the situation is complicated.  And the situation gets even more complex when you have different marginalized groups that are living in these rural and remote areas like is the case of indigenous peoples in some cases.  In the case of Mexico, for example, right?

     So this is a very, very important issue in Mexico.  It has been also raised, the issue of connecting women and girls because they are also affected by the digital divide and there is also a gender digital divide.

     And one of the things that we have been working together with the government in order to bring better connectivity and even connectivity to some of the rural and remote areas, is the work through community networks.  So in Latin America and the community networks movement is very strong movement.  We have been working together with different governments in the region, regulators as well.  Together with the CITEL, the Interamerican connection, the organisation of American states.  Through this commission we have been pushing very hard to put access, as a main priority.  This was reflected as well in the World Intellectual Property Organisation conference last year as ITU.  We worked together to bring this topic as a priority not only for the Americas region but also the rest of the regions at this world conference.

     And we managed to get, to mention the importance of this problem in some of the resolutions.  And also to include the importance of community networks.

     So for ones that may not knew, community networks are community-based initiatives led by the communities in some of the cases.  These are a solution and not a replacement of Internet service providers but rather innovative solution in order to build common infrastructure and for the people of the communities to be in charge of the network.

     This means that there are different training programmes that are given, that are done together with the communities for there to be community technicians.  Not only to talk about the technical part but also the sustainability part.  How the network is going -- how the community is going to be involved in the network.  This sometimes transitions to the creation of local content in the communities with the language of the same communities.

     So these community networks have become a very, very important agent.  Community networks are also now working with Internet service providers, with companies, community networks are trying to get access to backbone which is also very important to make network stronger and to have -- yes, to make the networks stronger and to have a better connectivity to have more megabytes in the network and to have a better quality for the network.

     In Mexico another case that has been very interesting is the creation of an indigenous virtual mobile operator.  Which is an -- mobile virtual network operator.  In this case the owners of mobile virtual network are indigenous communities.  This is an innovative way of moving forward and connecting the unconnected.

     To summarize this remains one of the biggest problems for the Latin American region.  We are trying to find different solutions.  As part of Civil Society member in Latin America, these are some of the solutions that we are working with, which are the community networks.

     But the companies and governments are also included and we are all worried about closing the digital divide.  Thank you, Osama.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you, thank you.  I think just to break the monotony we go from on site to off site and go a little online.  And catch Bhanu Neupan from UNESCO to request his intervention.  Bhanu, are you online?

     >> BHANU NEUPAN:  Yes, I am, chair.  Thank you so much.

     With your permission, it is quite interesting, some of the intervention which have been made.  That provides a very interesting perspective that is a major segment of the population are still not connected.  In addition to looking at the ITU website, they actually say that merely 5.7 billion people are online right now.  So this means, you know, a share by the rule of exclusion there are 2.7 billion people who are still not on Internet.

     So this is, I think, a grave concern for all of us.  Given the fact that many of these, the services that government provides have gone online.  So we have been working since 2023 when UNESCO as a member state adopted a recommendation on content in the cyberspace.  In fact, the multilingual content on the cyberspace.

     My pitch here will be to talk and give you a slide, like round about of what we are doing as far as universal acceptance is concerned.

     The fundamental principle of inclusion is to all people for the ability to participate in digital processes.  There are obstacles that impede this objective.

     And ICANN and UNESCO are promoting digital content and universal design.  It serves as a platform that appeals to an inclusively diverse audience, including people with disabilities.

     This transformation results in a digital environment that is accessible and accommodating to people with diverse requirements.

     I wish to note that universal acceptance needs to be integrated in its widest connotation.  Animus include the whole ecosystem of digital tools, processes and contents because sometimes, you know, what we do is we narrowly talk and rarely talk about content that is available.  And then somehow tend to forget that the process and tools are also equally important when we start talking about universal acceptance or universal inclusion.

     Here I would like to use the word universal inclusion which was the recommendation that was made by this year's Euro dig meeting which starts talking about validation of the representation of multilingual and locally relevant content, by stimulating the uses of an area of language, script and character sets.  It facilitates the availability of digital resources with people individuals of different abilities and those coming from different lingual background.  One in 14 languages represents 92 percent of the content that is available online.  So that, and this is a very interesting reality that there are almost 7,000 languages which are still spoken by different people.  So this expanse broadens the scope of digital content and increases its relevance to a wider audience.

     So I think we have to do a lot of effort to somehow make the Internet experience as well as Internet interface go in multilingual way.  If we start talking about digital inclusion.

     So moreover, the universal acceptance, you know, which we normally advocate facilitates an enhanced user experience as well.  It mandates the uniform functionality of digital services across a wide range of devices and technological platforms, including more cost effective hardware which I think like another 2 billion people in the world essentially possess.

     This eliminates the need for most frequent and frequently more expensive following, creating a digital ecosystem that is accessible and affordable to all.

     Here universal acceptance transitions the economic domain and promotes the advancement of international standard.

     At UNESCO we understand that it is part of the 2023 recommendation for universal access to cyberspace.  This issue has been advocated by WSIS process, axe alliance three normally talks about access to.

     This provides a framework for meat to adopt measures will promoting multilingualism inside the space.  Bringing this 1 billion people that are yet tore shared with the Internet.  This promotes a framework for digital services, there by reducing fragmentation and boost interoperability which is a major concern for all of us.

     The outcome is a streamlined process for the creation of economically viable and accessible digital technologies and content.

     But here I would like to stress the need for a multilingual -- multi-stakeholder partnership which is needed to foster universal acceptance.  It needs cooperation between governments, private sector, entities, especially digital service providers and civil society organisations, which some indeed stakeholders have already spoken during this Town Hall meeting.  These processes have potential to produce policies and initiatives that promote affordable access and ensure digital connection that appeals to a broader audience.

     This will be the last point I would like to make.  Universal acceptance is a driving force behind digital inclusion and advocacy.  We recently undertook and meats every four years they report back on with 2003 recommendation and one in three countries reported on what they are doing this their country.  That means almost 160 countries did not.

     So there is a lot to be done.  We talk about universal acceptance and universal inclusion across the board, but it looks like these are not properly integrated in the policy milieu that we essentially argue for universal inclusion or in digital divide in our countries.

     So we have to do a lot on this one and I think this is a very complex undertaking and requires a multi-stakeholder partnership, as I already said.  From the UNESCO side we expect full participation in the process to create an ecosystem for all people regardless of diverse lingual background and abilities.  Thank you.  If you have questions, I'm happy to respond to it.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you so much for highlighting the universal inclusion.  I hope we do not take another three decades to connect the rest of the 2.5 billion and extended SDG phenomena.

     Thank you.  We come to Zena Bou Harb from Lebanon.  And let's hear from you, the Arab scenario or the MENA scenario here.

     >> ZENA BOU HARB:  Good morning, everyone.  My name is Zena Bou Harb, the Coordinator of the Lebanese IGF.

     And at the same time I work at the incumbent operator in Lebanon as Head of international cooperation.

     Our digital world, inclusion means leaving no one offline.  And barriers to this inclusion can start with the lack of ICT infrastructure, but also there are a lot of other barriers like the lack of skills, like the cost of the services and even in different countries there are different scenarios for this digital divide.

     In Lebanon, currently the lately adopted digital transformation strategy tends to closing the digital divide in general.  I mean, in general means starting with increasing the physical access through the ICT infrastructure.  And the result was that currently 84 percent of the Lebanese population have access to the Internet.

     And in the Arab region, the Internet penetration rate for women was 56 percent and 68 percent of men in 2020, which is a good number compared to the global average that year which was 55 percent, especially that there are a lot of Arab countries that are classified as least developed with penetration rate of 19 percent than only.

     This was taken into consideration while drafting the Arab digital agenda, which that set as one of its objectives to increase the rate of Internet penetration among women in all Arab countries as well as to increase Internet penetration rate among users in rural areas and to enhance digital accessibility for persons with disabilities to enable them to access electronic services.

     And this year in January this agenda that we call Arab Digital Agenda was adopted by the Council of Arab Ministers of Telecommunications and Information Technology.

     It is a framework for the years 2023-2033 to ensure that all Arab countries can benefit from digital technology and use it to achieve sustainable development.

     Among the list of actions within this strategy was the preparing capacity building programmes for women on Internet use with a focus on women in rural areas.  Also preparing awareness and training programmes on digital accessibility with developing national policies for digital access and establishing nationality committees to prepare programmes and initiatives that enable the protection of young people on the Internet, along with preparing integrated programmes to educate and empower them.

     On another side, we know that ITU has a history in bridging the gender digital, gender digital divide.  One of the latest milestone in that regard was the establishment of the Network of Women.  So with different chapter, regional chapters.  In our Arab region the regional network of women for the Arab region was established in 2021.  This platform was to promote the effective participation of Arab women in the activities of the union in general.

     And give visibility to women and empower them to assume greater responsibilities within the delegation and different conferences.

     So it encourages women just to guide others, other colleagues and empower them and to create a stronger base for women in from the Arab region in the digital space.

     Returning to Lebanon, at OGERO we also know that, believe and know that bridging the digital divide gender divide requires digital skills.  Along with other skills, that is why we partnered with the Arab network of women lately to hold a series of capacity building workshops, organised by OGERO in which Lebanese women can participate on site at the premises of OGERO and other Arab women joined remotely.

     The first workshop was held on October 4/5 just a few days ago.  It was a huge success.  We have a list of topics that are in this series of workshops, let's say.  But we hope that after the success of our first workshop other women will be more encouraged to join.

     This is it.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you so much.  Thank you for highlighting just not Lebanon but the entire Arab area.  That gives a very good picture of the entire region.

     Is Poncelet here?  Can you take your time, since Poncelet is not here, you can take it?

     >> My name is Nasar Nicolas Gramma.  I am currently the Coordinator for Tanzania IGF and essentially I would like to take off from where Mr. Bhanu left from UNESCO.

     Really, the language divide, if I may say, I would like to divide what you have as digital divide into six sets.  Number one is infrastructure connectivity.  You will find in rural and urban Africa the connectivity is really the issue still.

     And this is very, you know, rampant in the rural area as compared to the urban areas.

     In urban areas you will find there is not only connectivity divide but also the quality divide.  You connect to the Internet, but the services that you are getting from the telecom operators is not up to par.  That is that issue of quality divide as well.

     Number two, we have the language divide.  For example in Tanzania where I come from we have more than 120 tribes.  But as you know, 75 percent of all content on the Internet is in English.  And 5.3 percent is in Russian.  Spanish is 4.3 percent and French is 3.4 percent.

     Even the language that which is widely spoken in east Africa and central, including the Democratic Republic of Congo.  It is not featured anywhere.  It doesn't have any percentage in terms of the content that is online.

     So you will find that universal acceptance today is as important as connectivity itself because if you are connecting people in the rural areas and most of them speak, for example, either Kiswahili or some other language, I come from Kilimanjaro where we speak Chaga and most people do, and people in Kenya speak Kikuyu and other languages.

     Even if you connected them, you provide connectivity to the village, there is still an issue, a big issue of language divide.

     So that is also an issue as well.

     Number three, we have the issue of accessibility, digital accessibility divide.  You will find, you know apart from the connectivity most of these technologies that we use either locally or also they are not inclusive enough to include people with disabilities because according to the statistics that are available, 1.3 billion people are of the 8 billion people around the world are people with disabilities.

     So you will find that even in Africa the portion of 1.3 billion also resides in Africa.  So there is also that issue of accessibility divide, where technologies actually tend to discriminate people with disability.

     Number four, we have digital skills divide.  Digital literacy, if I were to give an example in Tanzania, we don't even have a number.  Our population is about 62 million people.  But there are no statistics to show how much or what percent of the population is digitally literate.

     So that is an issue that as a mull we have to come in and address those challenges.

     Number five, the gender digital divide according to GSMA, in Sub-Saharan Africa and in Africa in general the percentage of gender digital divide stands between 12 and 13 percent.  We have more males online as compared to females who are accessing the Internet.

     Number six is the issue of quality divide.  Like I said at the beginning, you will find there are greater efforts to connect people, especially in the urban area.  But the quality of the services that people are getting, I see the last one is really the policy divide where policies are not uniform.  In each country you find there are no policies to enable like small time operators like community services, community networks provided to have spectrum allocation that is affordable.  So they can offer Internet connectivity.

     With that I think that will be my first intervention.  Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Thank you so much.  That was wonderful intervention from Africa.

     I will just take one and a half minutes to highlight some of the Asian part also, considering that I personally come from one of the highest populated country in the world, out of one point -- 2.6 billion people who are not connected, almost close to one belong to India.  So, and to be very precise, India's Internet penetration is 48 percent.

     And that is not meaningful.  If we exclude like you were saying that most of the people, the quality issue, the meaning fullness issue and I was just jots down the countries from Asia, Bangladesh has got 39 percent penetration.  Pakistan has 54, Sri Lanka has -- India has 48 percent, China is the highest, 76.4 percent Internet concentration.  Considering that you have more women connected, it is great news that I mean the fifty-fifty is there already, more than 50 percent is already there.  But India is not in that situation.

     There is, I would like to also reiterate that if you are not connected, that is clearly that you are not connected.  You are excluded.  Then those who are connected but unable to do anything.

     One indication that I can share with all of you especially because India is talking about exporting many of its technology at a policy level.  Like payment system have done India very well.  Like UPI, universal payment, I think integration or something like that.

     And according to the calculation, about 336 million people used in India UPI to make the payment.  The payment system, which basically work also orally.  You QR code, you just take the code and you can make the payment.

     Out of 336 million people who made online payment, only 122 belong to rural India and rural India's population is 908 million.

     Out of 908 million people, only 106 million people were able to make online payment.  If I consider online payment as a benchmark of quality connectivity or let's say meaningful activity.  You cannot do payment without having quality connectivity.

     So these are very important things that, are we connecting people just like that?  Or is it something like giving electricity without power, you know?  Line without power.  Are we connecting without buffering?  Or we are connecting only with buffering all the time?  And your data is coming and going but you are not really meaningful.

     Those are some of the issues I wanted to highlight.

     We have another about 20, 25 minutes since we started five minutes late.  Is to go on inviting people around the table and online to get questions.  Just being a better host, we would like to go online first since they are not here.  There is at least one or two we will take online and then we will take offline.  I count about three hands here already.  We would like to come back to you for sure.  We have enough time to come back to all of you.  Julian?

     >> JULIAN CASABUENAS:  We have a request from Bangladesh remote hub.  Do you want to place a question to the Panelists online?  If we can please give the floor to them and ...

     Go on, please.

     >> AUDIENCE:  Good morning, honorable speaker, honorable, I'm Shamima Master.  I'm from Bangladesh Chairperson, Bangladeshi Women IGF.

     Thank you very much for giving opportunity to me for the question platform.  My question is, the digital divide, my question to the honorable moderator, and my question is that the digital divide in our society is leaving low income families behind, especially women.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Is that all?  Do you want to make --

     >> AUDIENCE:  Yes, leaving low income women behind, especially students have lacking access to information.  It is, necessary digital technology, how can we ensure the reduction of the digital divide and digital access for all, and for an inclusive society?  Because in lowest developing countries, educated infrastructure and technologies resources for the low income penetration of the Internet in rural areas are two major factors that need to be taken into consideration for the inclusion of all people to reduce the digital divide.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Ms. Shamima.  Thank you for initiating the Women IGF in Bangladesh.  That is a great initiative and thank you for bringing women in your room to show the solidarity that they want to be online and they are online.

     Thank you very much.  I'm sure in the next half an hour in the discussion you will get your answer.  But if you are not, I will personally tackle the question.

     Can I go around.

     >> AUDIENCE:  Thank you very much.  For hearing me.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.

     >> AUDIENCE:  Yes.

     >> MODERATOR:  Can I go around the room to -- yes, please?  Please introduce yourself.

     >> AUDIENCE:  My name is Clare Muhindo.  I come from Uganda.  I want to supplement on the digital divide.  I am on a project to ensure equitable information access for refugees in Africa content moderation challenges has been language.  So we used the digital platforms and the language is spoken in these communities in the country are diverse.  Out of the ten languages we use on the platform, only four are supported by the digital platform.  That means that when we have to develop content in the rest of the six languages spoken by refugees that means we have to hire translators to translate this content for us.

     So how can we work with tech companies to bridge the language divide, especially in African countries?  Because countries working on this similar projects in other countries, outside of Africa, do not experience that because their languages is supported by the tech companies.

     Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  Julian, do you suggest that we respond to each question immediately or collect the questions?

     Any of the panel would like to address this language thing?  You would like to?  Yeah?

     >> KARLA VELASCO:  Yes.  I can take both questions because I think they are somehow related.  The issues that women face when going online.  I think it is really worth mentioning it.  Also how to work better with -- this is also something that we are dealing with.

     So it is important to mention that even though numbers and statistics show that in many places the gender digital divide is getting better and, for example, in the Americas region the score that we have for gender parity in access is actually quite good.  But when you get to see the context and you get deeper in the problem you see that there are questions that have not been asked.  The main problem of how access has been measured is that it doesn't reflect many of the realities that we face as women.  And also people of diverse genders and sexualities.

     These cross very important gaps and inequalities that women and gender diverse people face in the labour, social, health and labour fields.  It is something that goes beyond that.  What we have seen, once you get to analyze access and the participation of women in the online life, you see that there are many complexities around our participation.  And there are acts of online violence that even may force women to retreat from the Internet.

     So there is research that indicates that 28 percent of women who had suffered ICT-based violence reduce their presence online.  This is a big issue.  Even when women get online we get to face violence that makes us, silences us and censors us.  This is a very important issue.

     In that sense we have been also working with tech companies and platforms because there is a lot of platform accountability there.  When you get to analyze better the access of women and girls online you get to see that there are other complexities which are, for example, gender-based violence, hate speech and many Civil Society organisations are trying to get closer to governments and also work together with big tech companies in order to see what we can do better.

     The first thing that we have realised is that we need more research on national contexts.  Each country is different.  And the way these things happen, have a specific context.  I am relating to it because it has to do with language.  Many women who want to report online don't speak English.  They also face language barriers.  That's why I'm relating it to the second question.

     What we have seen, in some countries, for example in Mexico, yesterday I was in a session with a Mexican Senator.  She told me how difficult for her as the gender, as the gender lead of the Mexican Congress it has been very difficult for her to approach big tech companies because normally it is very hard for them toll comply.

     One of the things that we have seen, the safety Commissioner of Australia was in the same panel and what I really enjoyed from the Commissioner of Australia's participation is that in Australia the government has forced the companies to comply.  So it is, as we can see, a multi-stakeholder thing.  We need the governments, we need the big tech companies to also comply and also to make them accountable.  We need the participation of Civil Society, academics and researchers.  We also need a lot of information.

     So I think this would be my answer.  Sorry for taking this long.  Thank you, Osama.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  I have one quick line in response to your linguistic diversity issue.  And online content, which is come again and again.  Is that, you know, a script is no more written now, you know?  It is the technology oralisation is enabling more and more languages to get online.

     So we don't have to find a script and we find the writing and then we find it going online, video-based content generation and oral content generation and enabling what you call the indigenous languages, all the written.  Because India is also among the same.  We have hundreds of languages who are spoken by diverse community.

     And none of those content are available online, but those people are now adopting video as a method to get content online.  And also oralisation of technology and visual.

     You want to make a point?

     >> AUDIENCE:  Yes, it may be a bit disruptive.  If I may say so, if the IGF big event like that is multilingual, it will set a good example for the rest.  I think it is a symbolic gesture for increasing the case of the multilingual Internet.  Maybe a bit disruptive.  Sorry for that.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  Do you want to -- let's be very precise and short so we have more questions.

     >> AUDIENCE:  I wanted to respond to Clare's question on the refugees, the languages issue.  I know in Tanzania Google has been working with some individuals to translate Kiswahili through the voices.  I think what I would suggest is that you find individuals different languages and then you can also approach Google.  And they can do that for you as well.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you so much.  We have some questions from this side?  Yeah?

     >> AUDIENCE:  Hello.  Good morning, everyone.  Thank you so much for the opportunity.  I am the Coordinator of youth Internet Governance for India.  Working with young people in India in certain communities I go back to the basics.  Communities or even individuals who are using, tend to use learned works to talk to their families and stay connected that way, but when it comes to the Internet, I have come across individuals and communities who are not interested in having Internet in their lives because they find it as a big change in the way that they are living their lives.

     So it could be cultural barriers, apprehension or low interest.

     And this is something I've come across personally.  I wanted to understand how can we change this kind of a perspective.  If you have experienced something similar and if there are any suggestions on changing this narrative and getting them to look at the Internet as a resource when this kind of strong perspective is there.  This is not something we immediately require in our lives.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  That is a perspective interesting.  I would come back -- is there more questions?  Yeah?

     >> AUDIENCE:  I am Maha from Sri Lanka.  My perspective is a little bit something that we have discussed almost.  Even though we have discussed the same topic for three decades, we, the digital divide is getting bigger and bigger.  The digital gap between developed and developing world is increasing.  Not only due toll AI and emerging technologies but also with the digital policies created regionally and locally without coordination.  For example is GDPR that happened a few years back.  The government can also contribute to the digital divide.  In many countries around the world nowadays they are taking cybersecurity and the Internet as a topic for this divide.

     So there are a lot of issues that happened regarding media platform monitoring, offline activities regarding citizens and punishment and arrest through these legal actions.

     I believe as -- we cover 160 countries and nations, we need to work together.  I think this is a good platform to be together to work towards inclusive Internet.  Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Very good intervention.  Thank you for highlighting, even if you are connected your Internet is shut down or cybersecurity, national security, so many issues dividing you.  Yes, sir?

     >> AUDIENCE:  I'm Levy from the Youth IGF in Zambia.

     There is one thing I've come to be of concern for me.  I understand satellite and broadband activity as a way to bridge the digital divide in a sense.  However, it has come to my attention in a way, it actually has been more costly for those especially in rural areas to access broadband connectivity which again has become the way of increasing the digital divide when it is the possibility to reduce it.

     I noticed in my country, for example, we don't have policies that are pushing for law or expect strum connectivity like community networks.

     My question comes in to the panel and probably those that have worked in community work, how do we engage governments to promote policies that ensure digital inclusion by allowing for more spectrum but increasing development of community networks in, for example, my country or those near by because I think community networks in a way promote a lot of digital inclusion.  That's my understanding based on my reading.  How do we ensure that this is a reality?  That's my question.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.

     Poncelet, you want to make some point or respond to him?

     >> PONCELET ILILEJI:  Sorry for coming a bit late.  I have my asthma stopped me in the morning.  That is why I'm here a little bit late.

     I would just direct to answer your question.  In most cases trying to bridge the digital divide, you have to play in a multi-sectoral way.  The telcos have to be involved.  There is always a buy in usually when telcos are involved, discussing with the regulatory authorities and governments to discuss -- you talk to the average telco they will tell you, you want us to give ticket to the last mile with broadband connectivity.  They say okay, we have only 15 villages there with less than 500 people living in the community.  What do you do?  That is where community networks come in.

     And community networks brings in a lot of players, but at the same time what I have realised also is that when you get the municipal Council involved at the local level you achieve a lot.  Usually the municipal Council says okay, you want to set up the community network in this area.  We are going to give the building where it is going to be located and cell companies to come to do corporate social responsibilities.

     But the only way to do it, because we still have a number of countries that are facing a situation whereby the cost of Internet like in the Gambia is five dollars per one gigabyte of data, which is one of the most expensive in Africa.  I think Ghana has the lowest, you know, on the continent.  The average on the continent is about two dollars for the data and for one GB.

     How do we bring down this cost?  The only way is getting more submarine cables around and investing in last mile connectivity.  We have to make sure that we engage the private sector better, you know, in this process because they have to also be included, especially the telcos.

     80 percent of the continent is on voice.  So you should know we have done well on voice.  Why can't we do it on data?  It is still the same players.  Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you, Poncelet.

     We have two interventions online and we have other people who want to say something.  I want to respond to the Indian youth IGF intervention by saying, you know, if many people, even if the Internet is available and they didn't want to get into and there is a version or whatever, they don't have motivation, I think also because the Internet has become socially very noisy in the last ten years.  And that news is coming all the time.

     If you remember the last 30 years, initially everybody wanted to see the Internet.  I want to go there and I find something, research something.  Resource, as a resource.

     Now most of the people are thinking, okay, Internet means Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and YouTube and only five platforms, or six platforms are taking all the attention of all the consumers.  That is also reflecting, is it too noisy, insecure, whatever, is also something that is subject of digital divide itself, you know.  Why are we looking at like a shopping mall where it is so crowded that I can't go and do shopping myself there.

     That is one aspect that we need to all collectively work.  Coming to community network from my two cents, in India, community network has created a legislation change.  Now in India we have policy called PM Juan any, the wide area network or something like that, name after PM.  Anybody can buy Internet and sell Internet.  Whether you use community network as a framework or you do point to point or you do like a community development or you do as a telco or a small telco or local telco you can do that.  No licensing fees.  Totally libertised.

     Unless you tie into those 400 out of 500 villages where there is no tower at all, it is a different matter, you can build it.

     I wanted to respond.  And Carl can I come to you after I go online?  They are waiting a long time.  Bhanu?  Yeah.

     >> BHANU NEUPAN:  Yes, thank you, chair, for again giving me an opportunity to speak a few things.  In fact in a very interesting discussion that is going on both online as well as offline, I basically wanted to touch upon a couple of things.  It looks like when different regions are represented, they had their own take on divide, the digital divide.

     Some of them were talking about an access divide.  Some of them are talking about content divide, affordability divide, gender divide, generational divide and maybe multilingual divide which actually took the centre stage in today's discussion.

     It looks like we still do not have a set of, you know, effective indicators to measure divide across the world, the globe.  We have been talking about divide for a long time.  And it looks like this set of indicator has never been established by IGF, ITU, UNESCO, a couple of main players.  I look at the essential message to the new, Secretary General's comments, even in that one we do not talk about a set of universally agreed indicators in the digital divide.  In their different forms and shape.

     Perhaps what this panel could communicate to the responsible like stakeholders which will, as a take away message from this panel is to come up with a universally agreed indicators to measure a divide that exists in different forms and shape.

     I'm not sure if that is something available that we can take and say the AI revolution and data revolution that has brought in a new dimension to these divide.  So perhaps we first need to look at how these indicators can be developed and also can be streamlined or mainstreamed in different say digital policies across the world.  Thank you so much.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  I think we need a digital divide index.

     I think there is one more comment from online, right?  Julian?

     >> JULIAN CASABUENAS:  Yes, from the Bangladesh remote hub.  They are making a few questions that we can take them.  So the speakers can refer to them in the next session that we are about to start.

     So the question is that the digital divide in our society is leaving low income families behind, especially women, youths and students have less access to the information they need.  But they need ample access to necessary digital technology.  So how we can ensure the reduction of the digital divide and digital access for all for an inclusive society?

     In addition that in most of developing countries inadequate infrastructure and technological resources for the low penetration of the Internet in rural areas are two major factors that need to be taken into consideration for the inclusion of all people to reduce the digital divide.

     And the Internet can open up new avenues and opportunities for women, providing that we, providing them with greater access to education, employment, and entrepreneurship.  Technology can also help challenge and break gender stereotypes an biases.

     How can we ensure digital access for all, especially women?

     >> MODERATOR:  I think it was the same almost like the same comment.  Karla, you want to go ahead with your pending comment that you wanted to make?

     >> KARLA VELASCO:  Just regarding the low income, in France during COVID we observed that students were just connected through their smartphone and not through computer itself.

     So it is not just the response but some places, of course France connect were implemented.  There are places you can find all the equipment you want.  And also people who can help you with skills to connect to the necessary services.  You have to go.

     One solution, it is not all the solution.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.

     We are now in the last stage, although we have only ten minutes left.  Since lunch is coming, nobody is going to push us out of the room.  We can take at least a couple of minutes.

     So for all the six speakers I think the next step is to go ahead and get what is next.  What are the things that we can do to, as an NRI and going forward?  Maybe actionable items.

     So I will start from, since Poncelet is already here.  Can you take one and a half minutes and tell us what are the action points and going forward from here?

     >> Moving forward, I think one of the things we have to understand, do is in bridging this divide is we have to preach more on digital inclusion, really bottom-top and engage our municipalities more in the processes because in most cases we forget the local players at the lower level.  What we want to do, we want to take action without contacting stakeholders that their lives are going to be impacted.

     It is always good to hear from them and it is also very good that we should authorize our telcos who are one of the biggest players in terms of making money in the continent.  A lot of them have come up with very, loads of innovative solutions on eCommerce and everything.  And our FinTech companies on the continent.  Things in Africa and other things that are happening, but we have to know that all players to bridge the digital divide we have to do it rightly and we have to engage local.  We start local.

     And the infrastructure is there but coordination is not there.  I hope we can do it right.  We have seven years to meet the SDGs.  We have a lot of things coming up.  The best way to do it is engaging properly at the local level.  To hear their problems and providing solutions for them that we bridge that inclusion that is greatly needed.  Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much, Professor Peixi Xu?

     >> PEIXI XU:  Thank you very much.  I would like to say a few words about the possible solutions.  I think solution number one is to have options, for example.  That is to say if you take a taxi and if you use your mobile phone you should somehow be a laid to pay by cash.  Also if you go to the University you should be allowed to go in with your card and ID instead of using facial recognition.

     I think I have had some problems with my phone about this Apple pay.  So the owe facial recognition has to be activated in order to use it conveniently.

     So the first thing is to provide options.

     Secondly is to create awareness.  It is needed to have this awareness of this device and also there are consequences.  Basically now with digital literacy courses have already started in primary school and high school, which are extremely important for the young students to know about possible stereotypes that can be produced from the divides.

     Number three is about the content policy.  A few of my colleagues have touched upon the content.  So far I agree very much with Sri Lanka colleague that the situation has gotten worth from the traditional media to the digital area.  You have never visited a website under, what .TZ in Tanzania?  That is for Tanzania.  Possibly you have visited .DE and even .IN for India, but never a website under .VN for Vietnam.

     So we need to have these kind of awareness.  Also perhaps we have to implement the content policy to give relevance to UN IGF.  That is a very significant thing.  That is to say the global flow of the information remains equal.

     So under such circumstances, under the circumstance that the global digital divide cannot be bridged very soon.  So we have to ask the platforms to be responsible for the content, for the content, especially about religious interest about re-shore -- about ethnic -- sorry.

     So we have the global digital compact here but unfortunately the content part, part five was dropped.  Part five is about exactly content of misleading content.  And accountability.  It is important to handle this content area by incorporating the terms of service and then by implementing them.

     Thank you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Ms. Claire?

     >> CLAIRE POPINEAU:  Thank you.  Maybe the first step is to address issues of, gender issue in school.  Because, for example, in France it, this kind of stereotype women are not getting in technology studies.

     So I think this is a very important divider.  This is the first step.

     Maybe in the methodological point of view, we can, because I had worked on the Internet University -- maybe one step regarding this project of UNESCO is to, once a lot of countries will have ended the project to look at this indicators and to make a -- to think how we can use it to compare countries, because they are not actually used to compare countries but to make a frame of the country on the way the Internet is expanding in one country but not to be compared to one another.

     So maybe at the end of the project we have to reflect on how they can be used for action.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Can we go to Karla?

     >> KARLA VELASCO:  Yes, thank you.  In our region it has come an important, we have an important question that we are asking ourselves because we know that connectivity is coming and eventually many people are going to be online.  What will happen when we are all connected?

     Thanks to, the things that our colleague from China was saying are very important in the sense that we are not asking the question on why we want to be connected.  What do we want to take out from connectivity?  I think this is an important question.

     Today we have a session at 2:45 called what is the nature of the Internet.  We are going to address this question, if Internet should be a human right, a public good.

     In that sense I really love in Latin America we really push the reflection that community networks bring because community networks in a sense ask themselves, okay, it is important to be connected, but why is it important for us to be connected?  Why do we want connectivity as a community?  Why do we want connectivity for the younger people?  Why do we want connectivity for the elders?

     In some of the communities they don't want to be connected.  They want the rights of unconnectivity, not to be connected.

     This is a very important conversation.  It is one of the things that is right now happening to us an it is an ongoing discussion.  I think having the national IGFs, the regional IGFs, these global IGF is also, they are also very important spaces for us to ask these questions.  I think this is what is next for us.  And also working, keep working with the governments, keep working with the Internet service providers, with the companies, and together as Civil Society and yes, just also pushing this community networks point of view because it also includes the different levels and different members of the community.

     So I think that's what is next for our region.  Thank you, Osama.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Thank you, Karla.  Dear Zena?

     >> ZENA BOU HARB:  Yes, thank you.  And somebody, I think that the Internet access is an opportunity and the digital skills are the power.  We need the skills with the opportunity to have these powers.

     So my opinion is that in partnerships and in a multi-stakeholder approach everybody should be on this mission to bridge the digital divide.  Not only the government, not only the private sector or the civil society.  We all need to collaborate.  We need to find a link in order to serve the community.  In order to make the Internet accessible for everyone.  It should not be a privilege.

     Everybody should be able to benefit from the Internet for a better living.

     So partnerships and multi-stakeholder approach, I think this is a way forward to deal with the digital divide.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you very much.  I like the word that you used that, you know, access is an opportunity which requires a skill.  And all of us have a responsibility to participate to make that happen for those who cannot.

     Can we go for a quick way ahead to Mr. Bhanu?  And then we will close.

     >> BHANU NEUPAN:  Thank you very much, chair.  Just it is, it has been a very engaging discussion.  And I learned a lot from this one.

     A couple of things which I think could be a way forward from this interesting and conversation that we just had was that digital skills are now they have become indispensable to advance communities.  If you see all the questions that the Bangladesh women's IGF have posed, they all talk about how can we utilize in the digital skills to advance some of these disadvantaged communities?

     So this is one thing which has become extremely important from this one.  So the other thing is that we really have to care for the 15 percent of the global population which somehow are being left out from the digital dialogue.  Let's put it.  Not even taking into consideration like digital engagement.

     Even from digital dialogue they have been left out.

     I think we will have to find special provisions, especially in a policy and a lot of things for them.

     The third point that I would like to say is that Internet has now become not only an economy to provide services but at the same time it has also bringing in a lot of goods and services to the people.

     So this bid, so digital divide can not only say keep them like in the dark, you know, from the information like explosion that is taking place around us but also avoid them of services and goods that the governments are providing.

     So that is extremely important.

     One of our colleagues essentially talked about the principles.  This is something that UNESCO has had.  So the Internet essentially should be rights-based.  It should be open, accessed to everyone.  Also guided by multi-stakeholder processes.

     So I think that is a very strong message that UNESCO has provided.  Perhaps we should somehow think about utilizing the framework and come up with indicator that will actually measure the level of divide that exists around the world.

     Thank you so much, chair.  Over to you.

     >> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  We are absolutely on time to end it.  I will take my two minutes to close it.

     Just to summarize what we discussed mainly is that if I can divide that into two parts.  One issue on digital divide is the physical typical digital divide which is people connected, people not connected.

     The other part is that division within those who are connected.  You know?  How deep that divide is.  That is based on various level.  That is based on language, content, quality of access, Internet shutdown, control of Internet.

     Also if not controlled there is a market level overpowering influence on like how platform is, has become Internet, almost like Internet.  Internet is just about using four or five platform and searching on Google and that's about it.

     And then you are, of course, searching those content which is available on that.  And 75 percent of that has no language diversity.  And if it is not language diversity, it is also no cultural diversity.

     If it is not cultural diversity, you don't have a depth of the content also.  You are not listening or seeing.  If I look within IGF and I made a tweet yesterday saying there is not a single person who is not connected is here.  I mean, if we are talking about IGF, we are not even inclusive ourselves.  This platform itself is not inclusive.  We haven't made an effort to bring those who are unconnected to listen to them.  Or we haven't brought those who are suffering from connectivity also maybe Internet shut down like in India.  There is a region which is under Internet shut down.  I'm sure at any point in time they are not here.

     So we also do not make those efforts.

     Digital divide is a very deep issue.  It is a very, I would say it is a very emotional issue also.  In my conclusion I would reply to the Bangladesh intervention and a way forward, if I can make, is that the only way digital divide can be overcome is to look at Internet or digital from gender perspective.

     It is something like if your house is not complete without gender inclusion, how can you be, your colony be complete and therefore how can the Internet be complete without them?

     If you start looking at Internet and digital from gender perspective, you immediately become inclusive.  You immediately become them as a front runner of the Internet.  Therefore, you have more inclusion.  You have more content inclusion also.  You have more diversity inclusion also.

     And this is my personal experience working in India is that when we go to work in villages, we first give the connectivity devices or the access to women first.  Whenever we give to women, it is utilized better.  It is saner.  It is peaceful.  It is also good business and also the business outcome goes to the family.  You know?  Rather than goes somewhere else.

     Seriously.  We have seen that one.  And I would say that women are the best proof that if you want meaningful connectivity, give the connectivity to women.

     (Laughter.)

     >> MODERATOR:  There will always be meaning.  That is what we have seen at least in India.  I would like to end there by saying that the way forward is that all of us sitting here on the panel are responsible for fighting digital divide and also for taking access as Zena, taking the access to those people who are not connected with the skills.

     Thank you very much for everybody's participation and patience.  Thank you, dear panel.

     And my co-moderator, Julian, who is managing the whole time.

     >> JULIAN CASABUENAS:  Yes, I just want to say thank you to the government of Japan to host this meeting and also to the NRIs that has been participating in organizing the collaborative sessions.  It is an effort behind this and I wanted to highlight that it is important to continue working together, addressing these issues as well as all the technical staff that everything works smoothly because they are also supporting us in bringing this session to the remote hubs like in Bangladesh and people online.

     >> MODERATOR:  Great, thank you, Julian.  We will end with that note of thanks.  Thank you very much.