>> CHAIRMAN:  Good afternoon, everyone.  This is Xiao.  We have some speakers that will be three keynotes at one panel.  So the FIRST one I want to stress this workshop is organized by China internet network information center, cynic and China Association for Science and Technology.  And also Internet Society of China and teen diversity.  Now the FIRST one will be very brief introduction of share economy in China.  Thank you.  Okay.  I will give very quick overview of China's economy.  The FIRST one addressing the development help that China digital economy.  From the past, we can see that we have three stages in China's digital economy that before 2010, we have Internet application like typical application is e‑Commerce and from 2010 to 2016, we have more Internets that is very location business services and we have a lot of ‑‑ what you call in China Internet class.  Very popular.  And also from last year, AI artificial instillgence is a very heart ‑‑ it's digital transformation of economy and society.  I see given countries have different timelines, but nobody quite the same they have three stages.  And here we see that in phase 1, that means we see the development of much digital economy China.  Why is the FIRST one transformation that means launched by the government from top to the roots and golden projects by the government.  And also on the website, we see that we have very successful Internet models like e‑Commerce and also online service.  And in this too with internet class, we have very successful enterprises.  I give some cases like for platform, we have Abi baba, we have we chat and also buy two.  For share economy, we have more bike.  Everybody is riding bicycle.  And also from e‑Commerce, we have JD and (?).  Everybody is using and your phones have more digital content.  Also we have social media with chat, coo coo and armor and also we have offline services.  You can order a card, DD and also your milk and we see there are some technical like we are and also more intelligent and manufacturing tests.  Some of the other companies.  And so how we're thinking how did China ‑‑ China got some humans in digital economy especially with some highlights like online payment.  Everybody is not using cards.  Nobody will use the phone.  It is very easy.  We don't need cash and also e‑Commerce is forming China.  Everybody ‑‑ by most of my staffs, they're cheap and fast and also we have Internet finance in China and some entertainment with our phones.  So how we get this, I think there are two reasons because Internet and digital economy is not only driven by technology.  It is also very driven by market.  So China has a huge market with a lot of application.  Also, we have some exemplary facts with very big success in internet.  So all of you young people you are very creative and very post efforts in Internet.  Also we see some policy frameworks.  So in the future, when we see the tendency that means that would be more integration of the internet traditional industries.  One more traditional industries are changing during the digital information and from horizontal, that means we will not be local enterprises.  It will be more and more global overseas and that means we'll have more AI, more high technologies that will be technology driven.  So that's the three stages and from that, we see that four features, captures of digital economy.  The FIRST one you have to be connected by OT something.  You Connect with the internet.  That creates value.  The second one is you have to have some big platform, a huge strong platform because no matter what you are doing, I think the most important feature of the economy is that you have to be a platform.  You have to leave with platform.  It's an Eco system and then we have (?).  That means most important thing of economy like the back of the system.  The FIRST capture is intelligence with more and more intelligent driven innovation.  AI.  The second thing I'm going to share is share economy.  We see that this is also something like yellow bicycle and also on the left of that, more bike with two different kinds.  Looks like overnight it's going to have (?).  So how do they make that and there are more and more share economies.  Not only bicycles, but charging banks.  Umbrellas and also you see some shot of rental and toys, womens backs, a lot of things.  So it is more and more.  We see the tendency of not renting the value, but growing.  Setting weeks back to treat and reach $4,900 and job creation to 70 million this year.  So what's this share economy?  I think mostly important that we don't need to own something, but we just use that share something.  So it is not traditional with rental business.  That's different.  So what's the different with rental history?  Because I think that captures quite similar to digital economy.  You have to be connected with your phone and be connected internet and you have to location based the service.  You know exactly where you are located and you get the service with a platform like DD.  That's a platform company which cut platform and you have a data and you find each other and you demand and your service precisely with a platform.  So you do that automatically not by person.  So all these four categories receive connection data and platform and the four characters shaped the digital economy.  So sharing is very classical presentation of update economy.  Also, it's an Eco system, but during all the Eco system, there are several key things I want to address.  The this of the one that no matter what share economy, you have to prove your service quality and second, the credit system construction is very important because I have to know who is providing service and how is your credit especially if I want to share a loom with somebody.  Credit is very important.  Also the framework should be tailored to the new things.  And some conclusion.  Today I would see normally we have three stages an Internet and mobile Internet (?) and OT.  For features, we have connection, platform.  Platform is very important for all digital economy and data very important.  It's a part of moving economy and intelligence.  And also suggesting that with no tendency, especially IEO or oversee globals.  Share economy is not just, but a system and we have two keys.  Keys we have credit and policy framework seen like this.  And before the end, I want to look about the future.  When nobody everybody like note, there is a line like social media.  Where there is a team dream, it's a note, innovation.  Whether we have printing and then we have newspaper, that's a social media another kind of innovation like a lawn to make the printing more popular and we have not a note filled and board casting which makes it feel more comfortable.  Internet and the note still computing and also line.  Another note is computing.  When we have a note like innovation and we always have a line, it's a social like a media which make its more popular and we had another new innovation, another new note and the more medium to have it more popular.  What is the feature of artificial intelligence?  Everything is possible in the future.  That's my brief introduction.  Thanks for listening.

Another key note speaker will be Michael Khan.  He's an advisor, but that's (?) of Geneva.  Please, thank you.

>> MICHAEL:  I'd like to talk briefly about regulatory issues that come out of this sharing economy.  I think that's going to be a lot of issues coming up as a result of it.  So I will focus on a couple of regulatory issues.  So FIRST of all, based on is this presentation, I can argue the shared economy is very efficient and it allows people to share E sess capacity of their house, their house, their labor.  They can get part‑time jobs as taxi drivers with Uber.  And even for a regulation, it is pretty efficient because it is mostly self‑regulating.  If you ask someone 10 years ago do you get into a taxi by a perfect stranger sent to your phone, you would have said no.  These are largely self‑regulated applications or platforms.  But it is a convergence between an online service and online traditional service that is generating some significant regulatory issues.  And this isn't a new issue.  There have been three phases of this.  I'm not sure if I got the order right, but if you think back on napster, that was the FIRST sharing economy.  It of the over sharing because people were sharing illegally their music and eventually got shut down, but once Apple with iTunes and Spotify and other came along, they basically took care of, you know, put out of business traditional physical made CDs and DVDs.  So that's the FIRST example of online offering impacting a traditional sector.  Then you have over the top communications oh TT communications.  You can think about voiceover IP, video over IP.  You have these traditional electronic communications that were competed with using the same equipment, the same lines with these online services such as Skype, Netflix, YouTube and that created some real regulatory issues because the traditional sectors were regulated.  Telephony is regulated in some countries for prices for allowing emergency access for hearing disabled.  So a lot of regulation on traditional telephony and do we allow this voiceover IP to compete with our traditional telephone company and if so, how do they complete on a 11 playing field?  Are they differently regulated.  So there were issues around the regulation and now we're seeing it with content and some countries that have regulation on content, for extremism, the amount of advertising and the amount of content made available, well have been some questions.  Do we impose these on YouTube or others that are offering this online video.  It's always a hard question because you have these entrenched companies that are now being competed with over the top, sometimes by foreign companies sending services into the country.  And then this third one, the share economy I think the surprise here is you have these online offerings, iron platforms competing with traditional sectors that they never they would have seen from the internet.  A lot of these would never have thought that they would be susceptible to online and yet they are.  Again, you have this question we'll go into more detail on about how to regulate new services versus the other.  I came across an article that highlights the issue and what is hamming in the taxi cab mart in New York.  There's a limit on the number of taxes and they have to get a medallion, which is a symbol that allows them to have taxi service in the yellow taxis.  There's a number they decided after the great depression there was too much competition and they would limit the numbers and then regulate them.  So there was a set number of 13,587 medallions in New York City.  And these were considering a very good guest mate.  I use the past tense there because they not only went up in value, but they offered a stream of revenue.  So they were viewed as very good investments.  As 2014, the record was set for medallion and it was sold for 1.3 million dollars just the 3 years ago.  Now there are ‑‑ so there were 13,57 traditional yellow scabs.  Now there are 16,000 Uber drivers in New York City and not surprisedly, the they have drunk as low as 150,000.  Many of them sold crew bank up is theories because people can't served did the to buy these medallions.  So that raises an issue for the taxi drivers which was the focus of the article, but the article talked about the fact the companies phase different regulations.  It allows a certain number with access.  There is no surge pricing on a yellow tab, for instance.  Sole list different sets of regulation so that opens up two discussions and it's not just for cabs.  That was a good comp and not all cities.  How do you manage the transition?  Okay?  Just three years ago, people thought they were buying a steady stream of income and making a good investment with lifesavings and now they have been wined out because a new set of continues came out.  The City of Marker in 2059 made $350 million.  They made quite a bit of money, but I have to ask is this fair?  Or should we consider some kind of transition for people who invested a new set of conditions and another one was asked.  How do we manage the transition of voice as to goes to IP, how do we manage a video as it goes to IP and other areas.  But the second one is more long‑term question.  What are the appropriate regulations in the long run on the way the serve I offered.  So you can offer in the taxi tab example that you probably don't need fair regulations going on and there's so much composition.  It is having a limited number of medallions.  Everyone can raise the rate, but if you have 61,000 more drivers, you may not these those.  You can ask legitimate question fist we thought it was okay to put on conditions on yellow tabs for offering abled access and for servicing their equipment and having the right insurance.  What about the same for the new cabs.  Do we offer for the shared economy.  Do these workers get full‑time or part‑time jobs.  Do they get insurance?  I think there is that set of issues that has to be addressed in the long run.  Then I think we will have to seas a second set of issues which is that the platforms can build up to be very, very large.  There was no taxi company that offered service in every city.  But Uber now offers 60 countries, 37 cities, something like that.  An online model form scale is very, very well.  You can add new cities at almost now cost.  At least from the platform point of view.  There is significant network of facts.  The drivers don't want to drive for 10 defendant ways and we want to lose and manage which cab or which service we ask for every time we go online.  So there's going to be long‑term questions about the services we offer, what regulations are appropriate and how to regulate the platform as well, I think.  I will leave it at that.  We have to think about not simply putting Legacy regulations on the new services, but also not necessarily letting them be offered without any regulation at all.  We have to decide what were the appropriate regulations to protect us, protect the drivers, protect the users and impose those as we go forward.  I think that is going to be a tough discussion in each city, in each country where the service are offered.  Thank you.

>> LIYUN:  Thank you, Michael.  So we have news on the platform, new players.  So we need new governance.  Thank you.  Some also the next speaker will be professor (?) thank you.

>> Good afternoon, everyone.  I come from China and I'm working for (inaudible) university as a professor.

Today, I will talk about the challenge here from sharing economic.  Sharing economy in China grows so fast your sense of 2015, in 2016 there are sharing companies that are selected in the properties the global unicom.  So in China, sharing economy have their different kind.  There is body sharing bike, sharing umbrella, sharing knowledge, sharing KTV that everything can be shared like today.  We want to ask:  What is sharing economic?  Sharing economic in China they're very famous economy.  This is the DD and they're mobile, no make.  To bent system, the big market of the online holding in U.S. and China.  DD and Rubar has a big player.  In the half there are five years.  DD has about (inaudible).  Basically in China, there's a big, big nest on the big market.  Their OFO are fixed their player after sharing bike in China.  Now they have started to develop where is this?  Mart.  And sharing knowledge in China.  And now still no pay for country.  It is still the mining source of their vehicle.  Service FIRST in China is very popular, but the law and the regulation on human sharing in China is a ‑‑ okay.  Of course the Internet population is basically of share economic.  And now in China, support the sharing.  And Alibaba pay and charter pay.  It is very popular in China.

 China, most are Chinese customers ‑‑ there are many problems such as car calling for later, job slots of taxi drivers.  Berta of the CT management, finals and so on.  And there are 19 companies and the bank rob.  We have the sharing biker company.  It has been serious social problem that's from the basic conceptual to understand their sharing economic.  I think there are key words to understand.  It is basic the internet prouder form.  And the share resource transfer the right to use temporarily.  Sharing economy from their new technology, they are around a turning it.  Next.

Sharing economy brings the challenges through their Internet or governance.  Sharing economic are collected, they're progress of a social governance in China.  In China, sharing brings ‑‑ governments assist them or transforming from the governance to government to governor an.  Tradition economy government is top down.  From top down to button up.  At the beginning, Chinese government dislike to government stakeholder model, but now it's chaining ‑‑ changing.  Next step.

Now, let me introduce China's government model.  It explore on the Internet Governance.  In China and the internet accounts is about global governance.  The governance is very difficult.  In the global governance in China is the community for this tiny in cyberspace.  There's a new governance model.  I think maybe there are four key words to the future of the Internet Governance and the sharing economic.  It is dianonics, (?) and critical.  And that's all.  And I hope that we have a better future.  Thank you.

>> LIYUN:  I will give the floor to Michael.

>> MICHAEL:  Okay.  Thank you.  All right.  We'll have a lot of material for 40 minutes.  So FIRST I'd like to introduce a very distinguished panel.  To my head left, Dr. Yobalia.  The head of the Geneva platform and the author the definitive answers book.  The new version Catosun, the Executive Director and head of Japan for Geneva LLC.  Then professor, the head of major project division at the institute of sentence and digital birth.  And final well, Professor Chang.  The company he's directing in the sharing economy, if we can just start with Yovan and then we'll start with some questions.

>> This panel, thank you for inviting me and the next version of my book in China's will be released in the FIRST part of 2018.  The key ‑‑ the challenges we face is we indicated traditional to traditional to the near platform week.  So far 7 scripters of this new economy.  And the new rules developed for at least a few centuries are now challenged then that Michael brought challenges from you and they are icing them all over the world.  This is key issue how to address it.  We need to work again.  It goes that the new innovative tools are merging and they are row placing traditional ones and society.  The speedo adjustment is much lower than the speed of challenges.  Anything come to the question of the future work, future jobs.  Question of ethics and carrying for the biggest part of sort and list is very, very long.  Then conclude without analysis transcripts of the FIRST day of the IGF.  We do, as you know, you can follow the transcripts on the screen and at the end of the day, we analyzed transcripts.  What is based on yesterday's discussion.  The terms like efficiency, cost effectiveness were gradually replaced by value related terms like thrust, like sharing, like equality.  There is a general shift, it is now shifting that will be following after two days discussion, but it's a general shift here we focus on efficiency and you can do it to the question with how we deal with related to the job, micro manage the question what was going on all over the world.  There is observatory at IGF.  There slide shuts, cost effectiveness to trust inclusiveness, equality and making sure less few people are left behind as it is possible.

>> Where can people find out?

>> They can watch on dig work, but you will find the link on the website.  Thank you.

>> Okay.  Thank you very much.

>> Thank you, Michael.  And it's a pleasure to be here and I happen to be invited here a couple days ago.  What we share, we share the brain of humans, intelligence.  We create new technologies of network engineers.  We have now a contact that was more than 12,000 gentlemen with very different backgrounds.  Sometimes well are large institutions or retired engineers from large corporations or convertends.  We have a network of those great engineers all over the world and defining new technology called change.  Invent times and find out new application by using those brains.  Why we need this?  For instance, large old companies who need new technology on the engineering side instead of imaginal engineering and they are notes necessarily developing new technologies which are not (?).  They need some outside resources to help them to invent new technologies.  So we try to Connect those companies.  We and the same way.  Many large companies in the world have many.  But they top know how to apply.  We Connect people from different worlds and find out the new application, new business models for those.  And in order to do that, we share the Brian of helps.  We share the blind of intelligence, for one.

>> Thank you.  It's official, everything is being shared, our brains.

>> Good afternoon, everyone.  When I listen to the presentation, I was thinking about the issue, the co‑key issue.  I was thinking about two issues.  I read you the contents based on growing concern.  The FIRST plant is driving technology development because in this digital information, we need ‑‑ we do need a network service and shared resource to accelerate economic development, but how do we do this technology?  The implementation of the issue.  So as you see from the presentation, the cancel of application powers, transformation and the logistic Evans delivery of things.  You have emerge technology, but we still have to deal with some pending issue like I asked about the data and you see contribution to the fam I think some new technology needs to be used.  You have sharing economy.  You have electric pass we do know this technology.  The location based service is a concern.  Tons of sharing service or share economia.  It's very important because it will let folks the peeling of the user.  That's why?  I call this improved ice.  This is FIRST one.  Another is consumption.  I think we have two kind of categories.  Sharing activity.  Accounting, we are focused on sharing articles there is something going unlied or recorded articles like housing, bicycles, and Wi‑Fi and also even in China, the battery recharge it for Keyan market as well.  But I think for the next set, the important thing is information service and there is opportunity to encourage.  It forms scientists or young people and even for research activity.  I remember in 2014 the Chinese government launched the strategy of double creation.  That inquiring for people.  It is called innovation.  So it is a huge I read a new relation between the consumer and the producer because everybody.  After 2008, the university opens the data of what is said life to user.  So I remembered the data volume is from 2008 to 2016.  It increased.  It encourages the market.  It stimulate innovation.  It's a different sharing economy because not all data was provided to the user, but also enemy there, done.  The thinking with provide for orders to advance the innovation based on the listing effort.  I think this is really important thing.  That's all I want to share.

>> Okay.  So another version of the intellectual and now the information sharing using the platforms are not just share unused goods, but used ideas.  Share the data.  Okay.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  (?) it's my pleasure to be here and I'm a teacher.  Is internet class and Chinese fume and video cities.  And the internet passed is a international strategy in China.  There are many ‑‑ the most business model invocation in Chinese ‑‑ in these trees.  Most is about sharing economic.  I have several cases.  For example, there is few more websites named Pikachu.  It's a pig.  The website named it.  There is superior time for design and most design and there are many shorter videos.  Another case is the biggest city in China.  A company, a very small company have about 10,000 stores in their companies.  So they ice their superior time and Cloud computing abilities to (inaudible) for the CD, for the shorted fumes and for the animate the editions.  We have it become the biggest rendering complicates in China.  Many of their customers from Europe, from USA, their business model is also sharing economic.  So I found many pieces for sharing economic in Chinese film and media.  It is very interesting.  Yeah.

>> Okay.  Thank you.  So a form of sharing in our capital to allow everyone to lower the cost of making films and rendering runs.  I have three questions and then we'll turn over to the audience.  I will put the questions out if you would like to answer, please go ahead and we'll take turns.  The FIRST one will be on the economics of these platforms and the sharing.  The second on the regulatory and the third on prediction.  Then we'll open up to the audience.  The first one is on economics, how the platforms mediate through supply and demand, but also how the platform itself distributes resources between the drivers or the workers or the owners, the recourses and the platform itself.  So really the economics of how resources are redistributed as a result of the sharing economy, if anyone would like to answer that one.

>> Just to contribute to work the ‑‑ we found in our research.  What they found is one important element is that mat form is not becoming in the market itself.  This is especially easy transition to have a monopoly because digital field is by its nature prone to monopolies.  That can be serious distortions when it comes to the market.  They can replace broader system.  This is on trend, which is increasingly as there is coupled with the monopolies and the centralization of the resources.  Those are a few elements.  Temporary employment and bid to transactions and the system for e valuation, plus the risk of having the platform is basically new complete market.  Coupled with also replacement of so called invisible hand with various artificial intelligence for opt separation of exchanges on the platforms.

>> Thank you.  Catosun, sharing cars is one thing.  They all have four feels and get us somewhere.  There are differences in the way that we think.  Does the sharing economy the way you do it sharing intelligence, does that give the martyr or the more proactive shared resources and contracts because they can differentiate themselves more than say a driver or owner.

>> When we have the new technical challenges, people have the same questions.  Companies need a better quality of batteries for (?).  Everybody is looking for new technology.  Large order companies have thousands of engineers who are this is to have new technologies.  Through the network of engineers, we created.  We can have access in India with having a great technology on some materials to be used for batteries.  We can Connect them to find new in the opportunity.  Companies does not need to pay them find out the right person, right engineers, right FIRST they come out with new inventions.  In the case, we just pay them four ideas.  We buy them and get all those technology in many cases (inaudible) that we have over 500 already.  So it's very if the to have a new development quickly, cheaply and very efficiently.  Unless we have a good result, we don't need to pay.  They were normally hired by companies or diversities and they don't need to be wait for their thinking.  One question is that normally the professors do not have enough resources to pardon those ideas.  They have the capability of creating new technology.  So we give them opportunity to have such inventions and commercialize them.  And companies are happy by paying on a pin point BASIS to get the right technology.

>> When you are sharing your car with one person when you're taking a ride from one person, you can't use it for know else.  But big data like all data can be shared without cost.  It can be duplicated and the satellite data can be shared.  Is it refusing people to create their own data sets and maybe do their own innovations and satellite because they can use everyone else's.  How has it impacted investments and innovation and these fields that you deal with?  Yes.  You have a good question.  I think for this sharing activity is definitely about receiving the new estimate and saving energy for the person evolvement.  But if you try to do the analysis based on the personal activity, I think it requires special activities.  About we talk about growth across something, there is an example I think about is the Samsung spoon to emergency like the searching for the lost sheep or (inaudible).  So this kind of intelligence from different people, everybody can use the data products and the intelligent tools to extract information.  In that case, we don't need a data center or just based on the knowledge of expert or personal interest, but the other location if we do need analysis or track the trend ear the common PROVO runs or I think it's high (inaudible) and also the finally professor Chang, you talked about how create itch cities, film making is sharing the Cloud.  Is that helping creation?  Is that inch creasing activity or is it that one company is doing all the brack ground film for everyone else and maybe the innovation levels or creativity will slip.  Do thinks on the helping or hurting them?

>> The innovation model is very small.  But they have many servers.  So it is eventful the website and as a (?).  They are computing abilities for the rendering.  So is part of the industry.  It is a very God piece for some more companies to enter the couch and the film trays.  It's a good case for this model of sharing economic.

>> CG. has a question.

>> I have one more question in the background, but please go ahead.

>> Thank you for this panel.  I am (inaudible) by your decision and there are any quantitative group, we can share the impact this economy.

>> Any quantitative way of sharing the impact?

>> Yes.  If we want to see how is the sharing economy to contribute for the public or show skewed.  If they are any quantitative methodology, we can use to.  We call something because it is really amazing how a relatively scientific field, engineering field has very diligent on society.  If you can find the data arranged millions to billions and sometimes we think that the consultant will stay and what are they going to put, 2 or 3 million.  It is particularly range in two fields.  One is impact.  And the second one is cybersecurity.  It has another aspect because companies in banks have not reported attacks because of the lost of reputation and lost issues.  It is one of the challenges to have some data and some evidence on which we can build a policy.  From the impact on society to the risk for the societies, and this ask ‑‑ we have the service from the major companies, we would (?)and statistics can hide as of as repeal.  This is for economy or policy to try to get clothes that are to sump, which if which we can face the policy and I understand.  We see the impact.  We know we have very little data on it.  There are other service.  We found a ‑‑ ranging from billions to trillions and you also will find reliable data.

>> I think it's hard too.  We have a bad rye to quality of tours for economy because always city 2015 thigh were marrying digital economy and I transferred that into keep easy.  Also we have similar research in China.

>> Yes, please and then back there.

>> Thank you.  Rhyme a MAG member representing China.  FIRST I would like to touch this.  Impact of shared economy goes far beyond economy itself.  So you cannot simply quantify the parameters.  Share economy can then initiative.  We have utility resources and irate the productivity.  In the mean time, it can awesome problems.  So they share scree you have winners and losers.  Some certain aspects of them would cancel out each other.  And the second thing is carbon efficiency ratio China is making great effort to keep raising our.  There is effort to fight global warming and on the side, we have very clear kill indicator that our package.  It means that China's economy is transforming to a positive direction.  And also I want to touch on some aspects of which have been raised by our panelists.  The FIRST thing is when I go back to my home town or new country, the changes are very huge.  And it takes a bit time for me to adapt myself to my hometown every time I go back.  And benefits are there, but we also seeing lots of active sides.  China we could say that is the champion of the world in the area of share me and we is a benefit team.  We are a benefit teal from the early harvest of shared economy.  China is also paying tuition fee not only forkers, but for the whole world.  We have people enjoying lots of benefits and there are too many such companies.  The competition is so fierce.  Now, many countries are going bankrupt.  The users of having difficulty to get in there to paused money back.  That may cause the bikes and piling up in a (?), sharing can maximize the utility and create new type of waste.  That's another problem.  And also we have because share economy we rely on big platforms.  For example, for the cautionary, you want to find it nearby, which offer we needed to input your personal data in the privacies we have to see the benefits and also the challenge wills and the active slide of shared economy.  That is efficiency versus stability of the society.  Competition versus monopoly.  Regulation versus development.  We either allow it to develop FIRST or regulate later.  We put in place regulation FIRST and then develop.  But to have regulation too early would have a problem that we may kill the baby too early.  Without regulation, it may go into monster and grow in a bar pacific way.  That's the problem.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much for those points.  Does anybody want to comment on that?

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